193. How Franchising Can Jumpstart Your Entrepreneurial Journey with Jon Ostenson

Hey, Welcome back to the Average Joe Finances Podcast.I'm your host, Mike Cavaggioni,and today's guest is Jon Ostenson.So Jon super excited to have you on.Thank you for joining me today,

Mike.Look forward to the conversation.Thanks for having me.

Yeah, absolutely.Hey, I wanna start this off the same way I start every episode,and we wanna know more about you.So let's go into your background a little bit.If you could share a little bit about yourself, your story.Who is Jon Ostenson?

Absolutely.So based here in Atlanta, Georgia,wife and three young kids now.But when we rewind it all started coming outta the University of Georgia and spent, had the opportunity to spend many years in the corporate world.Got to do some neat things internationally and I went back to grad school and came out and I got into an industry I never thought I'd be in.Carter's skosh ended up having a 10 year run, just increasing responsibility over time.Learned a ton, can't say enough good things about the experience.But so many of your listeners,wanted to do something a little more entrepreneurial, didn't know what it looked like.And and stumbled into franchising.And I've had a few different roles within franchising.About seven years ago I started having conversations around and.One thing led to another ended up getting the opportunity to serve as president of Shelf GenY franchise Systems.So it went from big public company world down to a private company, but it was a growing private company.And serving as their president, I got to support all our franchise owners across North America.So Shelf Genie is custom cloth shelving for kitchens and pantries.A great little business in a niche.And had really grown rapidly.We became an Ink 500 company.Really just some great growth, but day to day I was serving all of these small business owners all across North America and supporting them on the marketing side and operation technology and product development, learning a ton myself.And through the process really fell in love with franchising.And like so many I thought franchising, I thought fast food before that experience.And it showed me that there are other paths to business ownership that oftentimes are better paths for a variety of different backgrounds.Fast forward, I partnered with the founder of Shel GenY.We spun off.We have invested in franchises ourselves.I've also had other business partners.We've invested in franchises.So set on both sides of the table, both franchisor and franchisee which has been great.And for the most part we've got good people running the businesses for us now and allows me to spend about 90 to even95% of my time helping others do the same.And so that's really the focus right now.I work with over 600 different franchise companies in a wide variety of different industries.I get out there and I help educate and help people connect the dots on how to step into business ownership.And it's entirely free to work with us.It's very much like an executive search type model that I have on behalf of these brands.And we work with some of the fastest.Fastest growing players in every industry.And so love being a, being able to help others step into business ownership,whether they're looking to do it full-time as an owner, operator as we call it,or pa part-time as semi absentee semi paths, able to get that side hustle going with the manager in place.So feel very blessed to have been able to help quite a few people across the country.

Yeah.That's awesome.What a great story and background.To go from, being in the corporate world to wanting something different to being on the franchise or side and then also the franchisee side.You got to see all the different aspects of that.So I think it gives you some really good experience as to do consulting for franchises as well.So I think you definitely have that ticked off.Okay.Now I wanna ask you, cuz I recently started up a business not too long ago and I'm finding it to be very, Painful with some of the things that we're working on.I want to ask you this question about why is, opening a franchise usually a better path to starting a business versus a brand new startup?

Yeah.And certainly there's work that goes into us.I definitely won't sugarcoat it, but when you look at the sheer stats, 92%of franchise businesses are still in business after five years, whereas a much smaller rate of startups and so it gives you better chance of success.And part of that is because you've got a franchise on the sidelines.It's almost like a coach, the better you do, the better they do.And not every franchisor is created equal.That's why we help our clients get plug, plugged in with the best ones.But you've got the coach,you've got the playbook.You don't have to question, is this business ever gonna become profitable?You know what that path to profitability looks like, and it's all about going out and executing.Oftentimes you, it gets overlooked,but you've got this community of other franchise owners across North America that are living the same thing day in, day out.So you're exchanging best practices and learnings back and forth.And then lastly, when you think about selling that business down the road and starting with the end in mind of working towards that exit, an interesting study came out fairly recently where they looked at 2000business transactions across a wide variety of industries, both franchised and non-franchise, over a 10 year period.And they looked at those exits and compared and like kind industries and found that franchise businesses actually traded at a much higher multiple than non-ed and like kind industries.Really when you start stacking these specs on top of each other it just makes a lot of sense.And I will say Franchising's not right for everyone.I've got some clients that are too entrepreneurial.I'm a member of the Entrepreneur's Organization.We have some that I work with in there.I say, Hey, you wanna put your thumbprints all over a business?It may not be the best fit for you.But good franchise, we're still gonna give you some leeway.And I'd say for the majority it is a better path.And you know what's interesting,Mike, is a lot of our clients are existing business owners too.When we work with doctors, lawyers,all sorts of corporate executives, but then also existing business owners that say, Hey, I've been there, done that.I know what goes into starting a business.I'd much rather start on third base and have a lot of the work done for me.

Yeah, no that's a great way to put it too.Cuz you, you have a head start at that point, right?And then you also have other people in your corner that have the experience, right?That not only the experience of starting up a business,running multiple businesses.Because once you're at the point where it's a franchise, right?There's so many other, business, unless you're like the very first one to open after the original one opens you've got a lot more experience to learn from and you could see different lesson lessons learned from other owners.So that's a great thing to look at.I have a friend of mine who just opened up a franchise not too long ago, and he came out the gate swing and he's doing really well with that.He's doing, it's I think it's called Junk Shot, right?Junk Shot Franchise.And he's crushing it.And I don't wanna go into too much detail with what he's doing with that, but I gotta say all I see now is just him just.Hustling with that, and it's really working out well.To the point where he was also in the Navy.Like I, I've retired from the Navy recently.He's actually still in, he's actually gonna get out because he's doing so well with the franchise.So I just.I couldn't believe it.I was like, dude, how are you doing this while you're still active duty in the Navy?He's man, I got a team.And so it's pretty cool.It's pretty cool.So giving him a shout out here.

Absolutely.No, I know the founders of Junk Shot and they've been growing and we actually had a client 30 minutes ago signed a Frame shots scream that is active duty in the Marines.And we worked with a lot of veterans and you certainly appreciate the service and love how franchising embraces,really that mindset and that discipline.Mike, something he said made me think about this too.If you start a business, you're on your own, you're on an island,oftentimes, and maybe you have a mastermind, great, which is important or others, other business owners.If you have aspirations of.Running multiple businesses or aspirations of keeping your day job and getting a business going on the side, that could be really difficult unless you've got that franchisor or support system.Two-thirds of our clients are looking to keep their day jobs or their current businesses and get something going outside of that.And when you think about, putting a manager in place, if you have a franchisor that they can go to as the technical resource and help manage that day-to-day,it takes a lot of the burden off of you and makes it more doable as well.

So how exactly does that work then?If you want to keep your day job and you wanna make this like a semi passive thing you hire a manager and all that, but what does that look like?You, I know you said that you can go back to the franchisor,but what is that called?

Yeah, ultimately, we call it semi passive or semi-absentee.Sometimes he'll refer to you.

But you have an executive team that helps you out.

Yeah.Ultimately that franchisor is gonna be the subject matter expert.Yesterday, okay, literally yesterday afternoon we had a doctor sign for a gutter company and that's the third or fourth doctor that we placed with that gutter company.It's a beautiful business.Hey, I won't go too far down the rabbit trail there, but yeah, but these doctors aren't leaving their day job,at least not anytime soon, but they.Put a general manager in place and then they help coach that manager.And maybe there's some activities in the business that they do, maybe they get out a little bit of networking and they're limited free time.But really that franchisor, they're the ones that know the business, their manager, their general manager is gonna be going to them on a day-to-day basis, with questions and for support and, Hey, am I doing this right?Not to the doctor.

Okay.Yeah.Yeah.Right on.It's just good because you have that person in your corner now.I'm just curious though especially now that you mentioned that it's a doctor that was doing this okay, how the heck does that work out with a doctor trying to also run a gutter business like this?It sounds mind boggling and I feel like you need a little bit more than just a manager in place.Like how does that work out?

No.And again, the, there's training that is done at the beginning.There's some pretty extensive training.They've got the coaches that are coaching you all throughout.One of the franchises I'm invested in, it's a driveway business.Got former CPA running it.He was a cpa, he's 27 years old.He got tired of cubicle world and he was more outgoing and he said anyway,it ended up being a perfect fit.And so these different types of backgrounds, and that's what's fun.About 90% of our clients end up in a field that they never had on their radar that they hadn't thought about.But when they put that business owner hat on and say, Hey, I've never been in the property services arena.Don't know that I'm passionate about it necessarily, but man, I like these,the financial potential and I see the need in the market and hey, that's a variable cost scalable type model.Maybe if I hire someone that's,trainable and we, willing to learn and excited to go, take this on.And some of our clients will give a little bit of equity to that manager.Most of 'em don't.They just put together a,incentive plan that gets 'em going.But it really is capable.When you look at the testimonials and the case studies that we have of clients that have been there and done that, and oftentimes Mike, they're building up this little empire.And some are, pretty far along.I think, I cite this example oftentimes,I think of Nathan, a client of ours who's 40 years old, has over 30million in different businesses.Largest franchisee of human and truck franchise.It's a moving service.Yeah.But he comes to me every year and says,Hey, I want to get into something new and he puts one of his young guys in charge of it and in every case he's come back and bought additional locations within the first year of every deal that we've done.I take that as positive validation.But he's building this little empire.And so we have clients that are at all different stages.Sometimes it's their first rodeo, which is a lot of fun.Other times there are a few businesses in and just looking, diversify.

Okay, awesome.Jon I have a lot of real estate investors that listen to my podcast myself,also being a real estate investor.Now my friend who started this the junk shot business, he is also a real estate investor, and I've.I know another one, another person another friend of mine who has some Anytime Fitness franchises and I'm seeing more and more real estate investors start to get into franchises.So I'm curious, like why do you think real estate investors are a good fit for being a franchisee?

Yeah, I would totally echo what you're saying, Mike.I'd say probably 75% of our clients also invest in real estate.And so I think it's, at its core,it's a very similar mindset, and maybe that they're involved in public securities markets and maybe that they say, Hey, I'd rather have more control and more in involvement.In some cases we work with real estate.Like we just did a property management deal today for a client down in Florida.He got into a property management business.He was all ran already managing.So a couple of his rentals, he said, why don't I go ahead and do this for other people as well.So sometimes there's a direct correlation.Other times it's a little more diverse that you, we have some clients in Columbus, Ohio right now that, want to get into an oil change business.And they're thinking is, Hey,we're great at site selection.We've got real estate in our background.We know the ropes there.We may bring in some investors.So there's a natural extension.Others say, Hey.Yeah.I'd say if there's any industry that's been popular, you mentioned junk shot,it'd be home and property services.Those have just grown like a weed,especially the last couple years there's been tons of interest.Everything from insulation to, I mentioned, the gutters, the dumpsters to.These non-sexy, cash flowing type businesses that are very understandable that Amazon's not gonna disrupt anytime soon.The covid or recession, in a lot of cases may not disrupt.Those are the types of businesses,and oftentimes there is the correlation with real estate.So at its core, I think it's the mindset.But I agree with you, we are seeing a lot of real estate investors.Part of it too is, There's not a lot of not a lot of deals to be had in some sectors of real estate in some markets.If they're looking around saying,how else can I put capital to work?

Yeah.Yeah.It's definitely slowed down a bit.We actually we were talking about that off camera, but I was telling you about some deals I was looking at in, in Georgia and.Just the numbers just aren't working right now but yeah, no that's great.Actually, it's funny that you say that too with the insulation.Cause I have another real estate investor friend of mine that also has an insulation franchise.So that's that's really awesome.Okay, cool.So now let's talk some numbers, Because I think this is probably what my listeners are probably most curious about as we're talking about franchising, right?I know, a lot of people we have What we call limiting beliefs, right?When you look at something new,something different, and there's things that kind of hold you back from it.And I think financials is a big part of what holds most people back from getting into a franchise.So can you talk about, what does it look like for the cost of starting a franchise what the revenue looks like,what kind of profit potential is there?Because I feel like, I know they're all different, right?But I feel like this is one of the things that holds people back.

Yeah, great question.And I'd say we'll have laundromats and, some deals that are north of a million dollars.But when you look at where the volume is today, and you look at a franchise fee plus startup cost plus several months of working capital,essentially you're all in investment.Typically I'd say 75% of our client placements are between $150,000 and $300,000.And sometimes that's one location,sometimes it's multiple locations.These are oftentimes services businesses.Like some of the examples we gave,obviously some oil changes may be a little bit north of that, or some fitness may be a little bit north of that, but quite a few in that one 50 to 300 range.And it's not that it's always a cash buyer, I'd say about a third of our clients are paying eight cash.About a third are using an SBA loan.That's very common in franchising.We've got some great lenders that we work with, and that's where you put some cash down, but then, you're probably financing 75, 80% of it.And then third would be you know what I bucketize as other.And oftentimes it's an old retirement plan, a 401K or IRA, you can roll it over through what's called a Robs program without the tax implications.Some people are using a heloc,some are using a portfolio loan.Different flavors of the investment side as far as the return side.This is really eye-opening to a lot of people, just the returns that are possible and nothing's guaranteed.But the great thing is as you're going through the exploration process, you get to talk to other franchise owners and hear about their experience and you know what their ramp up was like financially.You get the item 19 within the FDD,the franchise disclosure document,it's gonna lay out, here's our average revenue and profitability.Typically within the franchise system.I mentioned the gutter example and I'd say this is a good one.There's a reason why we're doing a lot of deals in it.But their franchisees are averaging1.8 million a year in revenue, and they're doing that at a 25% bottom line.That's EBITDA end of the day and the initial investment on that's probably between 200 and 250.So you do the math on that and you say that's a pretty solid year, annual return, plus you're gonna have the ability to sell it down the road.And then there's a third component that I think about, and that's the fact that as a business owner, you can write off expenses that you could otherwise.So the cashflow, the exit, and the the expense write off, I call the trifecta.And once you group all that together,the returns are pretty compelling.

Yeah, that's significant too, when you point that out.Real estate investors we know about, the benefits of writing off items on your taxes.That's definitely huge and it's something I don't think I was ever even putting any thought into, like most people, right?You don't think about the tax benefits side.You're thinking about, Hey, how much do I gotta spend and how much can I make?But yeah, like you said,there's a trifecta.To there, right?So that third piece, that tax benefit that you get can be significant, right?Because that's more money in your pocket and not going to Uncle Sam.So that's that's important to know.

And Mike,something I shared recently.So we had a book come out recently.My three kids, will package the book and help ship it.And there's other little things they do in the business.I pay each of them 12,000 per year and that's a tax right off to me.And then half of that gets rolled into a Roth IRA.There's ways that, again, from a tax standpoint, you can create some generational wealth without just handing a business down.

Yeah, I love that.Absolutely.Love that.Okay, so Jon how can somebody select what is the right franchise for them?

Yeah.You know, I'll start with the industry.So we mentioned property services being wildly popular, last couple of years.I'd say health and wellness, broad category fitness is a little bit crowded.We're not doing as much in fitness these days, but a lot of great health and wellness concepts, and people come to us and say, Hey, If the economy goes south, what kind of business do I wanna be positioned in?And I always go back to what are you personally gonna spend on, regardless of the economy, it's the things you care about, your kids, your pets, your aging parents, your health, your homes.So I think businesses, they're supporting those, stand to do well.And so I'd say directionally that's where they're looking.They come to us and they say,Hey, there's 4,000 franchise brands out there in the US alone.And what we do is we take out half of those that are in the food space, cuz my humble belief is they're easier, was to make money.So food and hotels we take out and then we narrow it down to roughly 600.And so those are the ones that we've picked to work with that, that we vetted.And but at any given time there's probably 50 or 60 out of those that I feel are the best of the best.And they've got the franchise or leadership teams that have been there, done that been successful.They've got the financial records, they've got the the competitive advantages.And then we personally do more deals than anybody else in the country and allows us visibility firsthand to see, what's resonating, why is it resonating with different backgrounds.We bring all of that together and then working with our clients, we have a very streamlined process where we get to know them.And then we introduce them to typically around 10 opportunities that are available in their area that we see as the best fit for their situation.Based on all those components of intelligence that we bring to the table.Typically our clients will say, Hey, here are the three or four that seem most intriguing.We make introductions on their behalf.The franchisors will then take 'em through a very structured process of exposing them to all different facets of the business and the opportunity which I'm happy to get into more detail on.But, we come alongside our clients during that process and have touch base calls and we've got funding resources and a franchise attorney and a recruiter and a coach.We've got all the partners that they could need to help them along the way.And it's a really fun process because a lot of times we find people don't know what they're looking for until it's right there in front of them.And if they go in with an open mind,it may be that they get surprised by what ends up being the best fit.

Yeah.Actually I'd like to go into a little bit more detail on the process.Cause I remember when my buddy was opening up his junk shot,like how long it took, right?There was, it was a process.There was a lot that went into it before he actually went and got his first truck and got started.So can you walk us through what that looks like?I know you you just gave like a brief overview, but can we get a little bit more into detail?I know this is more of a curious question for me too.At what point would somebody, that's looking to open the franchise?Like when would they go to the SBA?Is it before or after they decided what they're gonna do, things like that.

Yeah, I'd say starting out.So you look at several of the opportunities we handed over to you.Say, Hey, here are the ones I wanna talk to.From that first call, the franchisor,I'd say the process between that and when you actually sign is probably 60 days on average.Sometimes a little bit longer, sometimes a little bit shorter, but usually around 60 days during that process,I'd say, once you're a few calls in with franchisors, you start thinking, I need to figure out this funding piece.That's probably when you have a conversation, with the lending institution about SBA loans.And again, we've got a great partner that helps a lot of our clients with with their SBA needs.But the franchisor will take you through a series of calls and after any given call, if you say, Hey, that's no longer the right fit for me, totally fine when you hit pause, but so oftentimes it's fun, Mike, the one that's number four in our client's mind, pops up to number one if someone gets brought up on that call that they hadn't thought about.And that's where we see the magic happening.So the goal is to get you as much information as possible before you get to that signing day.And so what that looks like is they're exposing you to to marketing operations,to what training will look like.They'll take you through the franchise disclosure document in detail.They'll introduce you to other franchise owners.It's what we call validation,where you can ask them questions here about their experience and gives you some more data points.You get to have a call with the founder of the business typically.And down the road if things are going and you're feeling good about them and they're feeling that you'd be a good fit they'll fly you in for what's called a discovery day.Confirmation day.Typically, you'll fly into their home office, have dinner with them, break bread, get to know 'em personally.Spend a full day with their team getting any remaining questions answered, but also making sure it's a good culture fit.Some of those intangibles, really the goal, we, it's almost like a marriage.We want to work out long term.And again, we're getting on calls with our clients throughout that process,serving as a sounding board, helping them process what they're learning, but then also providing resources as well.And it may be that we get a few calls in and.They say, Hey, here's how I'm thinking about this.Now.Here are the characteristics I'm liking and not liking.And they start to build this framework in their mind and this lens through which they're analyzing opportunities.It may be that there's one or two we didn't look at in the beginning where we say, actually now based on what you're sharing, it makes sense to bring these in for consideration.So sometimes it can be an iterative process as well.

Okay.No I definitely appreciate that.That's It's definitely a process, right?But at the same time, I feel like once you get to that point where you've figured out what you want to do and you get to interview other franchisees and then, just get a better understanding and then go to the, the headquarters, the corporate office and meet the team there, go out to dinner.I feel like that kind of helps alleviate a lot of concerns most people would have and helps that comfort level.And I think that's one of the biggest things that.Again, like I was saying before is like people get turned away from that because that you don't know what you don't know.Having a service like yours to help walk you through it and essentially hold your hand, I don't like using that terminology too much, having somebody there by your side right.That, that advocates for you is pretty huge.Cause I know going through the process,you probably working with a lot of people that would always have a lot of questions throughout each portion of that process.I think that's definitely awesome.Jon, I want to ask you one more question before I transition this into the final round.And this is just a, I wanna know what it is that drives you to do stuff like this.So I wanna know, Jon, what is your why?

My why.So I feel very blessed and have been blessed throughout my career at different junctures.And yeah, there have been challenges along the way, but overall, and I love doing what I get to do now and we've just helped so many.So many people and they come back to us and introduce us to their brother or their sister-in-law or friends or colleagues and then we get to help them.A lot of 'em come back and buy additional franchises and said,that's what helps validate what I do.But ultimately, feel very blessed, with the family I've got and the resources we've been given, and I'm a big believer in this comes from the Bible, but to whom much is given, much is expected,and how we steward our time and resources and That's ultimately what drives me,that, hey, I've been given in a position here where I can help a lot of people and if I'm not getting after it, then I'm leaving something on the table.That's what drives me.

Awesome.I love that.That is it's humbling as well.I definitely appreciate that.Okay, so Jon, let's go ahead and transition this into the final round.This is where I'm gonna ask you the same four questions I ask everybody that comes on the show, and it helps us get into your mind a little bit and see how you perform under a little bit of pressure.Which I'm pretty sure I know you're gonna crush it anyway, so if you're ready to go, let's get this thing moving.

Let's do it.

All right, let's go.So Jon, first question of the final round is, what's the biggest mistake you've ever made in business?

One time I brought on investors into an opportunity that I really didn't have any control over the outcome of that opportunity.We had an operating partner that ended up not being the guy that we thought he was and had fooled us and was not telling us the truth.And here I am liable for his mistakes and his un proofs, and so lots of lessons learned from that experience.

On.I appreciate that, especially with what I'm starting to do now as a general partner on the multi-family side is, you wanna be a good steward of your investors money, right?

Yeah.

You don't wanna, yeah.It's important that due diligence process is very important.So I appreciate your openness on that.All right, Jon, so next question kind of ties into the last one, but what is something that you've learned that you wish you knew when you first got started?

I think for so many years I've been so driven and so forward looking and that's how I'm wired like a lot of us are.I think stopping and enjoying the journey more in hindsight, you get to the end of life and you look back and you don't wish you'd spent more time in the office.It's very cliche, you hear that, but,that's something I remind myself of every day and I think I probably could have reminded myself of that more early on.But, with kids at the stages they're in and they're only in that stage for a quick season I'm trying to do the balance of,I love work and I can work all day every day, but trying to maintain more balance.

Yeah.No, I appreciate that work-life balance is super important.Yeah.That's awesome.All right, Jon, next question, again ties into the last one, but do you have any tips or tricks that you would recommend to someone that is just getting started out today?

Yeah, this is overarching, but I'm a big believer that activity breeds activity and I think that, so oftentimes people sit around and pontificate and overanalyze and I think that getting out there, taking action just.It opens doors and in my life,so oftentimes I've been analyzing option A and option B, and as soon as I start taking steps in one of those directions and taking action,option C comes outta left field.And I really think that it, at the end of the day, don't overthink it.Just pull the trigger and iterate off of that.

Absolutely.Love that.Yeah that's fantastic activity breeds activity.I wrote that one down.Awesome.Okay.So Jon that's it for the hard questions quote unquote hard questions.This last question of the final round is just an opinion-based question,and it's besides your own, cause I know you have your own do you have a favorite business investing or real estate related book or podcast or both?

Yeah.On the business book side, the Compound Effect by Darren Hardy is excellent.And it's not rocket science, but it's an excellent reminder that in all facets of life, financially, and, fitness and everything else, those little deposits over time really do have that exponential effect versus just a cumulative effect.And I'll also say the Purple Cow by Seth Godin, I love.Thinking a little bit differently and analyzing what is the competition doing, why are they doing it, and is there a better path than, really a blue ocean, actually another great book, Blue Ocean Strategy.But the Purple Cow.I just love where that takes my mind from me a mindset standpoint.

Awesome.I wrote all those down because I have not read any of them.I'm gonna have to add 'em to my list and check it out.Yeah.So I appreciate that.Excellent.Absolutely.All right, Jon.That is it for the final round.However, I do have one more question for you, and this is the most important question of all.Okay.Because we talked about some really valuable things today.Got a lot of great information about franchises, how to get into them how to have somebody as a, as a consultant help you, guide you through that, right?So there are people listening right now that might say, Hey, I think I wanna open a franchise and I need a little help with that.So where can people find more information about you?Do you have a website you could share with us?Any social media profiles,anything like that?

Yeah,most active on LinkedIn.As far as social media goes though, we do a little bit on Facebook as well.But no, come out to our website,franbridgeconsulting.com.That's F R A N, bridgeconsulting.com.And sign up for our monthly newsletter.We put out some great content every month.And when you do, we'll also send you a copy of our new book it's called Non-Food Franchising.We've gotten great reviews on it,so we'd love to share a free digital version with all of your listeners.I'll have my assistant, pass along the links to to them.And then, if you read the book or you know are ready, go ahead and take a next step and actually have a conversation.I'd be happy to jump on a call with your listeners as well.My system will send a link to my calendar yeah, come out to franbridgeconsulting.com, sign up and I would be love to engage.

Awesome.Awesome.I appreciate that.And I will make sure we have all those links in the show notes to make it easy for you guys to just copy and paste or click away.Just again, don't do it if you're driving.Appreciate that.Jon, this has been a real treat.I feel like I learned a lot.I got like a whole page of notes here as you were going.So this is really good stuff.I'd like to keep in touch with you and talk more about this offline.But yeah this is really good info and I think my listeners are gonna find a lot of value in this.So thank you again so much for sharing with us today.

Enjoy it.Thanks a lot, Mike.Appreciate you having me.

Yeah, absolutely.And hey, to my listeners, I want to thank all of you so much for joining me and our special guest, Jon Ostenson,on the Average Joe Finances podcast.Go leave us a five star review and tell us what you liked about today's episode with Jon.Aloha from Hawaii and have a great rest of your day.