166. The Power of The 831B Plan for Small Businesses with Ed Bryan

Hey, welcome back to the average Joe Finances podcast. I'm your host, Mike Cava, Joni, and today's guest is Ed Brian. So Ed, super excited for you to join me today. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Appreciate it, Mike. It's I'm excited to be here. Excited to talk to you today.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's get right into that. The first question I wanna ask you is the same question I ask everybody that comes on this show. It's how we get these things started. But we wanna know more about you, so if you could share a little bit about yourself, share your story. Who is Ed Bryan?

Great question. It's funny because the truth of the matter is, I'm somebody who's, I'm a middle-aged guy. I'm one of those people who, I work in insurance, I work in finance, and if you were to tell me 20, 30 years ago, Hey, you're gonna work in insurance one day, and finance, I would've said, ah, that doesn't sound too exciting. And I wake up every day excited to go to work. It doesn't feel like work and I love it, but it's one of those things I don't know that I ever could have envisioned myself being where I'm at today. But if I look back over my life, I see each of the steps and decisions throughout my life that has led me to where I am. I've been here, for the last five or six years doing what I do. I love it. I can't imagine doing anything else. And so that's me and, quick 15 to 20 minutes or 22nd synopsis.

That's down and dirty and pretty quick, so I appreciate that.

Yeah.

All right, so let's get into that. So you said you never really thought of picturing yourself as being in insurance right when you were younger. But here we are. It's what you're doing. So let's talk about that a little bit. What exactly do you do in insurance?

Sure. So we actually help small to mid-size businesses. Cross industry set aside money for risks that fall outside of their traditional insurance coverage, right? So if you think about traditional property and casualty insurance, right? You think about your general liability, your worker's comp, your umbrella, your commercial auto all of the insurances, general liability, those types of insurance policies and coverages that businesses have. You can get those on the open insurance market, but there are a lot of risks that fall outside of those traditional coverage. If we were to go back and look at 08, 09, the Great Recession, a lot of businesses had risks when all of a sudden, the economy tightened up, people stopped lending money, and what was happening was businesses were out there, basically taking great record year profits, and then instead of paying taxes on them, what they were doing is they were going out and buying new vehicles or additional pieces of property, and they were financing them, right? And so they were betting that the next year was gonna be better and then all of a sudden when the market started to tighten up, banks started to tighten up lending. All of a sudden businesses found out, we've got a lot of risk out there and we've got problems in, all those good years, we should have set aside money for a rainy day. And that's all tied into insurance by this. Go look at what happened, in 2020, right? All of the risks that businesses thought, Hey, that'll never happen. I'll never get shut down. Or, 08 or 09 will never happen. And we're still living it, right? It's the last three years. I don't know that there's anybody that could have predicted what businesses, especially small to mid-size businesses we're going to face and are still facing today. And so because of that, we help businesses take advantage of a tax code. It's called 831(b), right? So it's just a piece of the tax code. Everyone on your show are listening to your shows. Probably familiar with the 401k, right? We all know what the 401k is. It's simply a piece of the tax code as well that was put into place in the seventies for businesses and business owners help their employees set aside money for future retirement. Late 831(b) was put into place by Ronald Reagan in 1986 and it was set aside or basically created to allow small to mid-size businesses to fund those types of risks that fall outside of traditional insurance. And so that's what I do. We're an administrator of 831(b) plans and I work in the business development side of the business and first and foremost, I'm an educator, right? Because a lot of people, they'll look at you and say, what's 831(b) because they've never heard of it. But if I say 401k, everyone says, oh yeah, I know exactly what that is, if that makes sense.

No, that does make sense. And I appreciate you explaining it that way because I, for one am not familiar with the 831(b), and I think this is a good topic to discuss, especially because there's a lot of people that listen to my podcast that either run a small, business or they have side hustles that this might be good for or they're in a real estate business and there's so many different avenues that maybe this is something that somebody didn't think about, that now when they hear about it, say maybe this is something we should look into. Let's dive a little bit deeper into that. So what exactly is an 831(b)?

Yeah, so essentially what it is, it's an insurance company at the end of the day, and basically when Congress passed this piece of the tax code, they said that small to mid-size businesses could set up their own insurance company. And to they were able to ensure risks that fall outside of those traditional risks. And so let's talk about those types of risks. I talked about some of the traditional risks, but what are things that fall outside of those risks? Things like brand protection. In the social media world, the cancel culture that we live in. As a small to mid-size business owner, even though you may not be at fault of something, you might find a bad review out there. Someone might go on Facebook and all of a sudden you find out your revenue is dropping. And you got to go hire a PR firm or a marketing firm to do some additional marketing. And that's a cost. Those are costs to a business that fall outside of traditional insurance coverages. You can't get insurance on that but if you could set aside money in a tax advantaged way to ensure for those types of risk those are things that keep business owners up at night, dispute resolution. If you own a business statistically at the minimum, you're gonna be sued at least once every seven years. And sometimes more depending on the type of industry you're in. If you could set aside money to cover the legal cost and potentially a settlement, if you had that coming at some. Why not do it, right? So on those good years, let's take some of those funds off the top end and let's say, let's set those aside for those types of things. Cybersecurity, that continues to be a risk where traditional insurances are out there, but there are a lot of gaps and there are a lot of holes or exemptions in those policies. And so if you go look at those types of things, those are the things that I always talk about. Those are the things that keep business owners up at. When we start to talk about 831(b) with business owners, inevitably they look at me and say, you know what? I had that happen to me, I had that happen. Or, Hey, I know someone that happened to, and if they're still in business, good for you. But a lot of times these things can be borderline critical or crippling to a business, and that's our whole point is that these are those next layer of risk mitigation. And it's been around since the mid eighties. A lot of people don't know about it, but I will tell you this, it's a big business tool. We always say it's an enterprise level tool that small size businesses should absolutely know about and be able to at least understand if it's an option for them to more efficiently manage the risk.

Yeah, that's fair. Now you had mentioned that with this plan, it is a it's tax deferred, right? So you're able to is it tax deferred as in like you're not paying taxes on until you actually have to withdraw? So similar to a regular 401k, right? But at the same time it can you also use this the same way you use a 401k to like, lower your income or lower your profits because it's tax deferred, is it similar to that?

Great question. And yes, so that's the incentive that Congress put into place when they passed this tax code, right? What they basically said is that any premium contributions or any of the funds that are paid into an 831(b) are a tax deduction to the business. So you're able to lower your top line revenue. By the amount of premium that goes into your 831(b). Now, your 831(b) by the very nature of being an insurance company, does not pick those premiums up as taxable income, right? So you start to see the efficiencies here. And if you own that 831(b), then you have the this bucket of money over here for these risks that fall outside of your traditional coverages. And if you have to go address them, you have pre-tax dollars right? Now, those funds can be managed, they can be put to work in the stock market. They can be fairly conservatively invested, right? The owner of that 831(b) controls that, right? So instead of, paying your premiums to a traditional insurance carrier, And not getting anything back ever. What we're saying is there's a mechanism here. The government's provided a way for you to set aside money for those risks that you can't get coverage for, or maybe there are big gaps in your policies, right? And in a more efficient way than you can manage that risk. And then if you don't have those incidents happen in a year, right? You have this pre-tax money, the policy expires just like traditional insurance, right? Will all of those premiums that are there become surplus or underwriting profit to your 831(b), you own it. It doesn't go to some third party that you never get it back from, it's yours at that point. You can do other things with those funds as well, like loans, dividends, those types of things.

Okay, yeah. So that's makes me think about like a permanent life insurance policy. Where it, even after you're done, like it, if you stop paying whatever the money that you put into it, that is, that cash value that's there still remains, right? But this is a little bit different, right? You're gonna have more money left over than it in a life insurance policy. Now what? During the time that you have this insurance policy, and let's say like it's, you're still making your premiums but something comes up and you don't necessarily want to claim it from that, but you want to take out a loan. Is that something that's possible? Can you borrow from your 831(b)?

Absolutely and that's a very popular strategy, right? The business owners look at. And so basically the way it works is, this is the litmus test when you're looking at 831(b), is you ask yourself this. Is this a way that a traditional insurance company would operate? And if the answer is yes, then that's how an 831(b) would operate. And if the answer is no, then obviously that's an 831(b) would not function in that way. So to your point, insurance companies, they're some of the biggest lenders in this country, and in fact, all over the world, right? They loan a lot of their surplus. And so absolutely you could take loans from surplus, not at risk premium. Once those policies expire, you have funds sitting there, then you can loan those back you can do operating lines, those types of things. So it's a very efficient way to loan yourself back or loan the business back pre-tax dollars and then put that money to work in a myriad of ways, absolutely.

Okay. Awesome. No that's great to know. Now, who all in the business let's say, you put one of these together for your business who all can benefit from having an 831(b).

It's a very good question. And there are a lot of answers, but to boil it down to a simple answer for you. Really, I would argue this, if a business has an 831(b) protecting it, everyone benefits, right? Because the business is more stable. There are additional reserves usually that the business can draw on if they suffer some type of incident that's not covered by the traditional insurance. But I will tell you the people that benefit the most are the ones that own or participate in the ownership of the 831(b). The 831(b) are usually C corp. They're C corporations, right? And we've seen business owners set them up to where they'll own the bulk of the shares, but they'll take a handful of key employees and give them ownership in this C corp and use it almost as a golden handcuff. And say, Hey, today this thing isn't worth anything, but down the road, this thing could be worth millions. And if you want 5% or 10% of the shares, it's a great way to retain key employees. And so really that's where we start to see those next level planning strategies that sophisticated thinking business owners start to look at and say, I can take this tool, give myself an additional layer of risk mitigation, and at the same time retain my employees for the long term that really make my business what it is.

Okay. Yeah, that's fair. All right, so I've got something I want to ask you now, just thinking about Sure. The past couple years, just, everything that we've gone through. Have you seen people benefit from having the 831(b) during the pandemic?

Yes, absolutely. And I would probably tell you that it's been the biggest proof of concept. In the last 15 years surrounding 831(b). It was easy for somebody in 2019 to sit there and say 08, that was a long time ago. It's never gonna happen again. And I always argue with, I don't even argue, I make, I use the comparison to say, Hey, if we were sitting here in October of 2019 doing this podcast and I was talking to you about, black swan events or things that might happen that fall out outside of traditional insurance, you might say to me, those things are never gonna happen. After the pandemic, right from 2019, early 2019 on, we have seen a substantial amount of business owners that the only reason they're still in business is because they had an 831(b). I've seen time and time again and talked with business owners all over the country to where they'll, they tell me their stories and say, I went to my traditional insurance carrier when I got shut down, I was deemed non-essential. And so all of a sudden I had this thriving business that was doing a 100, $200,000 a month in revenue, and I got told, Hey, you've got to shut down. So they would go to their traditional insurance carrier and say, Hey, I'd like to file a business interruption claim. First thing those insurance carriers ask are, have you had a fire, a flood, or an earthquake or a hurricane? Some kind of natural disaster? And the answer was no. I was shut down due to covid, right? I was deemed non And inevitably a lot of those insurance carriers said if you'll take a look at page 50 or 60 of your insurance policy, you're gonna find an exemption for business, for pandemics or for viruses. And those business owners didn't even know those existed. And we always talk about the fact that insurance policies on the open market today, they're getting bigger and bigger, more and more patients. It's not because they're adding more coverages. They're adding more exemptions. And, kudos to insurance companies. They do a good job covering the things that they need. With the cost of insurance, they're inevitably going to cover less and less. And they're gonna continue to increase premiums and deductibles. So absolutely. We have seen so many businesses that the only reason they're still in existence today is because they had an 831(b) plan prior to the pandemic.

Yeah that's that's good to know. And when you think about it, you. You can get upset with the insurance companies all you want, if the insurance companies had to cover every single business that got affected by covid.

Exactly.

There would be no more insurance companies. So it's important that they cover the things that they have to cover. But this right here is that safety blanket that you can give yourself and have your own personal insurance policy that you're, that, that will cover these items that aren't normally covered by your regular insurance policies. And yes those insurance contracts are getting bigger and bigger. And it's because of the things that have been happening, right? There's things that can affect policy policy holders in ways that, can really run the insurance company out of business. They can just lose all their money because they have to cover, so much debt that all their policy holders are affected by. think that's something that people should keep in the back of their heads when looking at, on, on whether or not they should have an 831(b) for their own personal business. And, Pandemic that we just went through, or I guess still going through. It's a good example of, why something like this exists, why a program like this was made back in 86. A lot of times some of these programs and policies get passed and people don't give it a second thought until they need it and realize that they needed it. A while back, but never paid into it and said, man, I wish I would have. So it's this is good information to get out there. So if you have just started a business or you have a business that's been going for a while, this might be something you want to consider. So Ed, I really appreciate that. And you explaining it to me like I'm, like, I'm a fifth grader is wonderful as well because, I'd like to learn more about this because there are certain things. That happened in life and you just, you can't get around that. And if your insurance isn't gonna cover you somebody's got to have your back.

Exactly. And will you bring up a great point, and I just wanna reiterate it. Could you imagine if all of the insurance carriers covered every single business interruption claim across the globe due to the pandemic? They'd be all insolvent, they literally cannot do it. And that's why we always talk about the fact instead of waiting for another P program from the government, another and, the government had to do what they had to do, right? But if you had a mechanism or knew there was a mechanism to set aside your own money for a rainy day, then you don't have to depend on the government next time. Or if you do, that's another great backstop, but why not create your own backstop? And to your point, insurance companies are great and we love traditional insurance. It's just sometimes they have their limits as well. And so for a business owner that's thinking about, those things, once again I go back to you, the things that you worry about that, you lay in bed and stare at the ceiling about this is what an 831(b) might be able to do to help you.

No, that's great to know. Now I wanted to ask you specifically about 831(b) is it, can they also cover things that regular insurance would cover? So let's say your insurance will only pay up to a certain amount. Can you supplement that with a 831(b)?

Absolutely, yeah. So 831(b) is, there's a lot of risks you can put into them, right? And there are alternative risk financing mechanisms for traditional insurances, right? So you can't supplement some of the the policies out there for things like excess risk or umbrella policies. Commercial auto, there are deductible reimbursement programs as well. If you need to raise your deductible to lower your premium, you can put those types of risks into an 831(b) as well. So it's a very flexible multi-tool when it comes to financing risk.

Oh, so you can actually pay a deductible with 831(b) funds?

Absolutely.

Okay, that's good. That can also help lower your regular insurance premium. So that's good to know. Yeah. See, this is why I'm asking these kind of questions, ed, because, the more you talk about it, the more you realize the benefits that are there, that are available with a plan like this, versus just, giving the definition of what an 831(b) is. There's only so much you. Say, without kind of digging into it a little bit. So I definitely appreciate it. Now, can you tell me why you think it's important for a business to have an 831(b)? I know we touched on it a little bit, but I'd like to dive a little bit deeper. What is, I guess maybe some of the, or actually let me rephrase this question. What are some of the biggest benefits you've seen for your clients that have had 831(b) in the past.

It really boils down to something really simple. That's a great question, Mike. Options, right? And that sounds simple, but as a business owner, the more options you have, the better decisions you can make. And an 831(b) gives a business owner more options. Meaning it gives them financial flexibility and stability that a lot of times. They're looking at or they're trying to achieve, right? But right now, if you just save money, if you're a sophisticated or a smart business owner and you're saving money there's no incentive to save. You're gonna get taxed on that dollar, right? If you say, Hey, we're gonna save 10% of our gross revenue every year that's fine, but guess what? The rules of the game say you're gonna pay taxes on those dollars right now. There's a mechanism out there, right? Called 831(b) that's going to allow you to save those dollars pre-taxed, right? And if you ask any business. Would you rather have tax advantages as pre-tax dollars or after tax dollars? That's a no-brainer, right? And so it goes back to options, right? You start to put this money aside on the good years, and then when that rainy day comes that no one can predict, you've got these funds setting off on the side, and all of a sudden you can make better decisions, right? You're not hamstrung by the lack of cash flow you're not a prisoner of the. And to be honest with you, time and time again, I have countless stories of seeing business owners able to pivot, able to seize opportunities, right? All of a sudden, one of the greatest stories out of 08, 09 and really why SRA, the company itself exists is we saw a business owner who had been setting aside money into an 831(b), he worked in the RV manufacturing. And then in, as we can all imagine those of us old enough to remember in 08, 09, no one was lending money on RVs, right? No. They weren't building them because no one was buying them. And so what happened is a lot of these RV manufacturing facilities in the Pacific Northwest started to shut down or they were going to foreclosure. This gentleman was CFO of another RV manufacturing company. They owned a bunch of these 831(b) guess what they did? They loaned themselves the money out of their 831(b). They showed up at the auctions and they bought these facilities for pennies on the dollar and completely transformed their business. So that's why I say options, right? Able to seize opportunity in the moment when you have cash and no one else does. Or if you have a really bad day or something in your business, you couldn't even have dreamed up in your wildest dreams like 2020. You've got that money to pull into your business. You're able to make better decisions and really just make sure your business lives another day and you don't have to worry about those wild swings of ups and downs in your cash flow.

Yeah. So that RV company example that you gave is a perfect example of why something like this is just another great tool to have in your tool belt, right? Where, the people that didn't have this tool, Wound up losing their businesses, right? And the guy that did have the tool said, okay, I've got this tool so I could fix everything else up and snatch it all up on pennies on the dollar. And wow, what a great way to expand your business when everyone else was dealing with such loss. They had that as an opportunity to build even bigger and better than what they were before. So that is a fantastic example. So thank you for that definitely something that's definitely food for thought. When you think about, the opportunities versus risk in any given situation. There's that famous quote by Warren Buffet where, you know, when everybody's selling now's the time to buy. I'm not saying it exactly, but or like when everybody's fearful, it's time to be greedy, right?

Yeah.

So that's the type of mindset that you can have when you have something that's going to keep you safer in those times of fear. Where people are gonna be fearful. You don't have to be fearful because you've put those risk mitigations in place to prevent the worst thing from happening to you. So I think that's fantastic.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right, ed man, I'm trying to think if there's anything else I want to ask about 831(b) because I have a pretty good understanding about it, man. I think it's fantastic. Is there anything else you want to add?

Here's what I'd say real quick, just, for your listeners if you own a business or you work with a small to mid-size business I would say this, any business that grosses around a million dollars a year and up right, and even $750,000 a year and up, they should at least be aware of what an 831(b) is. Right? And you owe it to yourself as a business owner to educate yourself on these types of next level tools. It's not a coincidence that big business has been using these tools since the tax code was written. And you think about it when the market dips, or when the economy pulls back, Walmart doesn't stop building stores. They go out and buy more ground. Guess what they're doing? They're loaning themselves money from their insurance companies, right? And so this is a big business tool that you can bring all the way down to that small mid size business. And that's why I said if nothing else, educate yourself on it because it might not be the right thing today. But just knowing these types of tools exist are very powerful in and of themselves. And then it, when the time's right, then you can pull the trigger and so that's what I would say is just, make yourself aware of them. Look at these next level tools. Don't assume they're just for big business, cause a lot of times you'd be surprised that you can take those and apply them to your business.

Okay. That's fantastic, ed, and act, actually, while you were saying that, I thought of one more question I wanted to ask you.

Okay.

Okay. So if there is let's say you, so you saw like a lot of times during the pandemic. What some of the things we saw with the SBA with those P Loans, right? A lot of that was for like employee compensation and things like that. Can you use 831(b) to compensate employees during a, let's say a pandemic?

Yeah, good question. And so the answer is, the short answer is yes. And what we would do is we would look at the loss, right? If you were deemed non-essential and you were shut down, right? Then you have business interruption. You can pull funds out of your 831(b) to cover your debt service, your debt, your payroll, those types of things. So absolutely,

Okay. Yeah, that's good to know because employee retention became a big thing during the pandemic too, right? Because a lot of companies, couldn't pay their employees anymore. So of course they went on elsewhere to get another job or collect unemployment for a year with that extra $600 kicker, and that made them not wanna go back to work. But when you have something like that it's, when you think of it, you could think of it also as a retention tool that when you do back out of the backend. You still want to have your team in place and not be the guy that's everybody left. And now I'm trying to scramble to get a team back together to, to grow my business back again. Now that we can open back up. So I think that, that's why I wanted to bring that up. I think that's huge. All right, ed, I want to transition this into something that we call the final round. It's where I'm gonna ask you the same four questions that I ask everybody that comes on this show. And it'll give us a good understanding of how you are, like when you're under pressure or put in a tough situation. So if you're ready to go, we'll get this party started.

Let's do it. Let's do it.

All right, ed, so the first question I wanna ask you is, what's the biggest mistake you've ever made in your finances?

Great question, and it's painful, so thanks for bringing it up, no and it might seem it's less painful now than it was say, maybe six to eight months ago. But a handful of years ago, I guess it's been four or five years ago, I had the opportunity to buy Bitcoin when it was about $750 a coin. And it had spiked over a thousand dollars and it dropped like seven 50 or 800. And I was ready to go, and then I talked myself out of it. And yeah, I got to see the meteoric rise and it's come down a little bit to earth, but I still look at the fact that, $750 a coin I missed out. I was gonna put some capital into it and talked to myself out of it. And so I've learned a lot about, risk taking and calculated risk taking. But it's still a mistake that I think about on a somewhat regular basis.

Yeah. That's one of the ones I think a lot of us look back at. I had a buddy of mine just trying to convince me to hold onto Bitcoin after it dropped, cause I had some, and when it hit got up to $19,000, this was back in 2015, 2016 timeframe, it got up to $19,000, then dropped all the way down to $7,000 and I sold it when it dropped down. And over that next couple years it got up to, what, $60,000 before it dropped back down so that's one of those yeah, okay. I punch myself in the face for that. But yeah, it is what it is though. I look at it from a point of. Yeah. It's okay. It's okay.

Yes.

I didn't lose money, so I'm okay. But.

Same way. Yeah. So I'm with you.

So I appreciate that perspective, for sure. All right, ed next question kind of ties into this, but what is something that you've learned that you wish you knew when you first started?

You started in the business that I'm in right now?

Yes.

Just how many risks there are out there. The business owners are uninsured. It's shocking, right? If you really start to think about the risks that business owners and entrepreneurs take every day, it's shocking. And I always say business owners have got to have a short memory because a lot of times they wouldn't get out of bed every day. If they realize all of the risks and all of the bad days out there. But it's one of those things where you think, oh, insurance, they've got it covered. Yeah. That might not necessarily be the whole story.

No that's a great point. It's Not always gonna cover everything. So that's, yeah, goes with what we were talking about here with these 831(b). No, I appreciate that. All right. The next question is, do you have any tips or tricks that you would recommend to someone that is just getting started today? And we'll say somebody that's just starting out their own business?

Yeah that's a great question. What I would say is, I would just say never stop learning. Don't ever feel like you ever arrived. Because there's always more to learn. More to know. And the thing is, and I alluded to this a few minutes ago, don't ever assume that something isn't for you or isn't for your business. Oh, that's only for big business. I hear that a lot, right? When I talk to people specifically about 831(b), but there are a lot of other types of programs and strategies out there. They'll always say, oh, I thought this was only for big. Or, how come I didn't hear about this 10 years ago? I didn't listen right? Or I assumed, right? Don't ever assume, don't ever stop learning and don't ever discount your business no matter how small, because a lot of times you can apply the, these tools to you and they could be a complete game changer for your business.

I absolutely love that. Actually, so I wrote something down as you were saying that because I feel like this is probably the thing that stuck out to me the most is you say, don't ever feel like you've arrived. And I feel if a lot of people could just keep that in the back of their heads, if they start a business and it's really successful and they're doing really well. Don't let that get to your head and think, okay I'm at the peak, I'm at my pinnacle. There's always room for growth. There's always room to get better, and there's always room for one of those risks that you're taking to bite you in the butt. So yeah that, don't ever feel like you've arrived. I like that a lot. Yep. Appreciate that.

Awesome.

Sure. All right, ed the final question of the final round is, do you have a favorite business investing or real estate related book or podcast, or, both?

Yeah let's talk about a book. It's a book I actually had to read in college, but it has stuck with me and I find myself referencing it quite a bit. It's called Good To Great. It's by Jim Collins. And basically what it is he talks about how very few businesses can make that leap from being a good business to a great business. And in that book, something that's really interesting is he examines how businesses will lose their way, right? So you've got a good. And a lot of times businesses are their own worst enemy. And so they say, oh we're good at this. Why don't we go try that? And it's the whole, don't fix what isn't broken mentality. But a lot of times businesses can't help themselves or business owners because they're fixers, right? And they want to go do something new. And sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. So that is a great book. It's been around for a long time, but I find myself referencing that on a regular basis or will always take a step back and say, is this something we could do really well? Is it worth us pivoting from what we're doing really well now? And is the opportunity cost gonna be worth it? Good to Great. By Jim Collins. Great book.

Yeah. That sounds like one I need to add to my list. So thank you for that recommendation and even the way you described it afterwards I feel like for anybody that's any type of business. That sounds like a great read for them to to get into. All right ed, that is it for the final round. However, I do have one more question for you, and it is the most important question of all because people were listening to this interview and they're like, man Mike, you asked some great questions. Thank you. I know. But. Ed, you put out some really fantastic information and I appreciate you working with me here because I knew nothing about 831(b) before this conversation. Now I feel like it's something I need to have for my business. And I'm not saying that because it just, this conversation in general, I'm just looking at it from a whole perspective that, you know, and what I learned from it and what this can actually cover. And also the tax benefits. I love tax benefits. Just the things like that, being a real estate investor, we love tax benefits but just all of the stuff that we learned, you know, People here are gonna be like, Hey, we wanna know more about Ed, we wanna know more about SRA. So where can they find that information about you guys, what you're all about? You have a website you could share with us social media profiles people could follow. Where can we find you?

Yeah. It's really simple. I appreciate it, Mike. Our website's, 831b.com. You go there, we've got a lot of educational information. My email is just Ed, so ed@831b.com. Shoot me an email. Love to set up a time to chat. I'm an educator first and foremost, and I always tell business owners more than happy to talk with you and give you a one-on-one. Hey, let's talk about your own individual situation and I would just say reach out. It's really simple always looking to educate people and get more of the word out there, because here's the thing, Mike, we truly believe, and I believe in this personally. That an 831(b) plan is gonna become as common as a 401K plan within the next 10 to 15 years out of necessity for business owners. So yeah, reach out. We'd love to talk to you, Mike. It's been great. You've been awesome. I appreciate it.

Yeah, ed. Hey again, I truly appreciate this. I appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation with me today. I really mean it when I said I learned a lot. I've got a nice page of notes down here. And just the conversation was great, man. So thank you

likewise. Thanks so much.

All right, and hey, to my listeners, thank you so much for joining me and our special guest, Ed Bryan on the Average Joe Finances podcast. Go leave us a five star review and tell us what you liked about today's episode with Ed. Aloha from Hawaii and have a great rest of your day.