144. Diversify your Portfolio with Diversyfund with Craig Ceciio

Hey, welcome back to the Average Joe Finances podcast. I'm your host, Mike Cavaggioni, and today's guest is Craig Cecilio, the CEO of DiversyFund. So Craig, thank you so much for joining me today.

Yeah, Mike, thanks for having a show. Appreciate it.

Yeah, absolutely. Hey, I wanna start this off the same way I start every podcast episode off, and we wanna know more about you. So if you could share a little bit about yourself, tell us your story. Who is Craig Cecilio?

Wow, that's a great question. Really I started out in the financial services industry, probably late nineties. Got fortunate enough to have a couple mentors who taught me the business and how to syndicate deals, transactions. Started out predominantly in real estate over the time period. I've probably done a thousand transactions system, since that time period, so I'd say maybe make myself a little bit a specialist in how to structure deals and stuff like that. Live through a couple market cycles and through that experience is able to come up with an idea to start diversity fund where we allow everyday Americans an opportunity to build wealth like the 1%. And we do that through our micro investing platform, where we aggregate dollars for as low as $500. Which means is anybody, regardless of your net worth, there's no qualifications qualifies for this type of opportunity. And it's culminated with the years and years of serving institutional and family offices and high net worth investors. And it was always a thing that, yeah, you're making them a lot of money, you're serving them at the end of the day. And it always felt a little empty to me, was all about making money and greed. And now I got take my experience, my skill set, and apply that to something that I'm passion about, which is offering that to everybody, and at the same time, educating people about these investments.

Oh, I love that. I love that's exactly like the reason why you're here. Because, we love to talk about financial education and getting people like to understand, some of the everyday terms that you, don't normally see. And understanding how to invest your money and build your wealth. But one of the things that you pointed out that I really like is how you make it that everybody can invest like the top 1%, right? That means for all you Average Joe's and Jane's out there that are listening right now, this is something that, Craig's put together to give you that opportunity. So I think that's really awesome, man, and I appreciate you sharing that with us. I want to just talk about something real quick, cuz you said that you've lived through several market shifts, right? So you've got a good understanding of what it's like to be in a down market versus in a upmarket, right? Both on the real estate side and probably on the market side as well, right?

Yeah.

Now as you've experienced those, where do you kind see us heading right now? Because, we're not officially in a recession but we are kind of unofficially in a recession. So I've asked this question recently to a couple people that have been on just because of, the two negative GDP quarters generally would put you in a recession which we have not officially done so yet. So where do you see us at right now as just the state of the economy?

Yeah, I think we forget that we were in a mini recession at the beginning of the pandemic in 2020. I believe it's March. I always get confused. March 17th or March 20th. It's one of those two days and if you go back and look at the S&P 500, it was down in the two hundreds and today it's back up in the four hundreds and that's almost like double. So it really went down. We went through about a three month mini recession right there. And today you all the uncertainty there. So you looking back to that. And today it's crazy cause I got the jobs report today and it looks like we're doing pretty well with that. And then you go online and see these major companies doing a lot of lay offs. For those of you who are business owners, you're still having a hard time hiring people cause of all the changes out there, but it seems to be, there's still a lot of money out there for things at the end of the day, but things are slowing down. There is a lot of indicators out there. With the inflation happening with the increase in interest rates with the supply chain issue, still with the war in Ukraine. Was it last week or was it I think it was last week. There was a major flood in the Middle East, in Pakistan. I think that's more central Asia. I'm not really certain what you wanna call it. And that's gonna have some effect on stuff as well. I didn't know there's a lot of textiles that are traded over there and that It's such a global economy, we're all interconnected. So there's a lot of indicators saying that we're headed towards a rush recession. We have the negative growth like you said, but however, there's still things that are really working well except, going the gas stations is hurting all of us. And out here in California, which was odd, we just a notified by the state, Hey, can you guys reduce your electricity for your electric cars, where they also pass the bill saying. Hey, you know what? By 2035 or something, no gas cars, so I'm confused about that. We have to cut our usage of electricity cause of the supply, the issue of energy. But this cause the heat wave. And at the same time we're not allowed to have gas cars in this state. So you have all these things out there that you are just kind just confusing. But it is changing. And I do believe we're, we have a slow down. We need a slow down to get the inflation under control here.

Yeah, Craig that's huge. It's funny that you mentioned that about the whole electric car thing. Cause I'm a big believer in electric cars. I have one myself, right? I love it. And but the thing is like, people don't think about the back end side of that, right? The amount of power that it takes to charge these cars, it has to come from somewhere, right? And yeah, when you look at, taking a huge state, like California, for example, and. Pretty much just forcing, saying, Hey, buy 2035. You'll no longer sell internal combustion engine vehicles anymore, right? It'll, it's just gonna be electric cars. You think about that and then, as people are converting and getting these electric cars, What's that doing to the power grid, right? How is the power grid keeping up with that higher demand for electricity So that's the other thing to look at is the state putting in new power plants? Are they upgrading their facilities? What are they doing to make that better? And if you're not seeing too much of that, then be prepared for, some stuff to get a little wonky here in a couple years. There's not enough power to go around. So just food for thought. Like for those that are listening right now, just stuff you should be thinking about when you see these policies get put in place. And I don't like to talk politics on this podcast at all, right? But what I'm saying is pay attention to the laws being passed. Because it will affect, what you can do, in the future with your finances and everything else like that. But anyway, I don't wanna get too far down that rabbit hole. It's just when you brought up the electric car thing, it just kind of triggered something in the back of my head and I'm like, yeah, look at what's happening right now. Here in Hawaii we are shutting down our last coal plant and they said, Hey, expect electricity prices to increase significantly, because now we're just gonna be using the oil plants and because the price of oil's gone up so much, your electricity per cost is gonna go up as well. So a lot of people here were very upset about that. It's little things like that you gotta pay attention to so you can manage your expectations for what's coming.

Yeah, there is something about the old coal mines shutting them down and those acres put the solar panels on, and I think they said it was like the state of Wyoming, like 250,000 acres. We would need to have to really generate the electricity we need for the whole country. So I at least I'm happy about the conversations going that direction. The execution of this is always the tough part, right? There's a lot of new parts, the politics and stuff like that, but you gave me some ideas for stocks to buy. If someone's invested in more efficient batteries and done, I think that'd be a good one to buy. So whoever comes out those products too. So some things we're talking about their. Is innovation and you look like Musk and everyone else out there today that, hey, this is good stuff. You're, I'm getting some stock tips from, you'll see who's the next company to kinda really help us out.

That's awesome. All right, so let's get back on on topic here. Now you had mentioned, job reports are showing, job reports are up, right? But then you see the news about the big companies, like laying off a bunch of people and, I was having a conversation with someone else about this and they had mentioned that. Yes, they think we're in a recession, but it's not gonna be the same kind of recession that you've seen in the past. You're not gonna see the huge job loss or anything like that, even though you see stuff like this happening, there's still so many people that are hiring that kind of counteract the job loss that's going on right now. With that being said, what would you say for somebody right now that, they've got a decent paying job and they're trying to figure out how to make it, and they just haven't invested before and they want to start, but they are, uncertain with the way the market's going just because even look at the conversation we're having, right?

Yeah.

There's a lot of uncertainty there. What should be the first step that they should take in properly educating themselves? To start making investment decisions.

For me, uncertainty means opportunity. So when people are, don't really know what to do, there's a lot of opportunities to present itself. And what I love about today's world is there's a lot of ways of take advantage of these opportunities out there. There's a lot of micro investing platforms, which kind of lowers the barrier to entry for people. So if you don't wanna stick all your eggs in one basket. They're all FinTech platforms out there. For instance, like you have the Robin Hoods, the world where you could buy partial shares of stocks. You could do auto deposits where there's 50, a hundred bucks coming out to your account on a monthly basis instead of buying $10,000 worth of something. So there's a lot of tools out there, but I think it comes down to your personal financial journey. And today it's like you're different. Each one of us is different. And then we all believe we wanna be control of our financial journeys. So it's the educational components of that. And the biggest transfers of wealth happen during recessions. And usually most people miss out on this. Like I was saying earlier, there's a lot of dry powder out there. The institutional investors are doing it. I think it was Blackstone built the biggest dry powder fun in history. I think they got like 35 billion that's on the sidelines, ready to buy assets that they go down. So how do you participate like them and take advantage of this? So it's really just being aware of what's out there, educate yourself. There's tons of stuff online, and then you don't have to stick all your eggs in one basket, understand where you are personally, and start trying stuff out and familiarize things with the different options that are out there for yourself.

Yeah. No, I love that. Absolutely. It is a very personal thing, like you said, depending on where you're at in your own personal financial journey right? And which direction you wanna go. Cause there's so many different ways to build your wealth. It just depends on which way you wanna do. I prefer real estate myself. That's, to me, I feel like it's one of the best ways to build wealth. But somebody else might prefer the stock market and index funds, and that might be the route they wanna go, and that's perfectly fine. But anyway let's let's get back to what you're doing right now for the ordinary person, right? Let's call them the Average Joe. How do you feel investing can be democratized so that ordinary people can participate fairly in the capital markets?

It is being democratized through innovation, through FinTech with that. So really lowering the barriers to entry using the technologies. Unfortunately, there is a slowdown, there's a friction point with a lot more compliance coming in cause we're going through this big crypto let's call it recalibration of the crypto industry. The crypto asset is, there's not a set of rules out there. And so I think, so the regulator's trying to figure out what that is and so you have these opportunities where you could, which through these platforms, and this is being innovations taken something that's old and making it better using technology to and apps and online platforms and all that stuff. And this is allowing people that opportunity with the introduction to the blockchain technology that is supposed to make banking a little bit cheaper on that for the transference of funds. So we're still figuring things out, but there's more opportunities now than ever for people to participate in platforms such as ours are taking age old investments, and now we're able to take these institutional quality investments and offer it to everyone else. So there is a lot out there, a lot of new stuff coming out there. So there's a lot of noise, which is the hard part of what works and what doesn't work. But again, if you're spreading across. Through different types of platforms, putting in small amounts, at least you're getting educate in that process as well as the traditional investors, the high net worth people, and the institutions are doing billions of dollars. These platforms are allowing you go in those same kind of investment vehicles or as low as 500 and some pieces a hundred dollars. So there's a lot of opportunity today for people.

First thing you said right there, right off the bat is lowering that barrier to entry. And that's one of the things that you do right with DiversyFund.

Yeah, we're as low as 500 today. We're working on getting it to a hundred, and that is just really working with the technology and putting that together. However, the banking kind of industry is still a little old. School hasn't caught up. They still charge a lot of fees where it's not cost effective, and that's what we're working on, building our own tech around that. And we should have that launch in the next six months. But that's the whole thing. It's like you have these kind of archaic legacy institutions there. And let's face it, how do the banks make money? They make money on all the fees they charge you. So you go to an ATM fee, maybe you have a, let's call the average show how much they have in their savings or checking account. Let's just, for sake, this conversation, let's say it's a thousand dollars. So every time they go into an ATM machine, they're getting paid $3 and 50 cents. Where the person who has a million bucks, the bank waives the fees. So we're in and the person who has a million dollars can afford that $ 3.50. It doesn't really ding the million bucks. That person with less money, it really makes a significant difference. So the kind of, the whole way the system set up, the financial system it has to break and reform itself, cause why should you penalize someone for taking their own money out and when they don't have a lot of money in the first place? Kind of doesn't make sense, but, I'll leave it like that. You can draw your own conclusions about why it's that way, but those are some things we're working on.

No, that's a great point. Even look at like the the overdraft fees and stuff that people get charged, right? If you accidentally pull out a dollar over what was in the account. Even if you have money to transfer into that account in another account. I've seen it happen that way too. The bank will sit here and charge you like 35 bucks and then I saw something the other day. I can't remember what channel it was on, but there was some talking heads on TV talking about, bank overdraft fees and the history behind it and how some financial institutions even would, if you have a bunch of pending transactions, how they will move them around to make it, that when they hit the first one that will knock you under. Hits first and then the other ones will hit. Even if the other transactions were like $2, $3, whatever that you did first and you had the money in the bank, they will move them around so that it hits after you got, you've gone negative. So you get hit with three insufficient fund fees. And that was mind boggling. I was like, I can't believe. I was, that's criminal. If you ask me, that's criminal, but that's the environment. That the everyday average Joe is in when they are trying to get into this world of investing, right? Those are the challenges and hurdles that they have to face that the top 1% doesn't have to face. So I think that's huge when you know, and I appreciate, the point that you bring up that. With what you're trying to do within the next six months create a system that's gonna lower a lot of these fees so that when somebody does get in for that $500, they're not paying so much just to get in. They're not paying all these other fees and everything. Now, are you gonna do that through blockchain?

No. We're just working on our technology and partners with that. So just have to build it out. We already have the architecture all together, so we're in the process of building that out. Based on just, we have a business plan put together where it works out for us, but we've been in business six years to get here to do it. So it took quite a bit of time. We have to prove concept first to do it. It wasn't like we came out. And that's another thing hard to build these types of business. And the more of them we have, the better it is for people. So the barrier, even to build a business like we did is really high. It takes a lot of money to do that. And someone like such as myself, who's more towards getting close to 50 years old here in my upper forties, is with the experience to do it. There a lot of us wanna do it because we wanna just get, think about retirement, right? , we don't think about crate something. I did it out of a passion and out of a need. And I always like competition cause it forces me to get better. It is a tough thing. And then also, With crypto and all the negativity with that going on and with the bad actors and the crypto, it trickles down across all financial technology industry where there's more increased oversight, which means there's increased cost. And increased cost is tough for young businesses to survive through that. So there's gotta be a happy meeting here. And I've always go back to the best way we should watch people is to educate them, is really empower them, give them the tools to make their own decision. And I feel like we're a little bit backwards. We're always lead with regulation, but we should lead with education. So how do we kind of balance those two out? I think that's a big thing you don't hear in the media enough is how do we lead with education more? Yeah. They wanna sell, they wanna sell subscribers, I guess nowadays, since not papers, right? And so they always like the volatile news. But at the end of the day, to really help people out is we really gotta leave with a lot more education.

Year, No that's huge. Education is the most important thing for anyone that wants to invest, whether it's in real estate, the stock market, crypto. Anything, right? Any type of asset class that you wanna get involved in, you should learn about as much about it as you can before you actually start putting your hard earned dollars into it, right? Because the whole point of investing is to take those hard earned dollars that you work for and make them work for you instead of you keep working for them, right? Yeah. That's awesome. Now there there's a couple things. I know there was another topic I wanted to talk to you about especially since you run this this fund, right? And something like regulation crowdfunding, right? Do you think that something like that is a positive thing for your average, like non-accredited inventor?

It is, if it's used in certain ways, it's how do you use it properly. So these were created by the Jobs Act to give people access to alternative investments to do it. But if you really dig deep into some how they work, and I've actually understand them quite well. They're all a little bit different. And people are trying to make businesses out of this, but it's so a regulation CF. It's supposed to mean that I think a person only can invest once in a calendar a year or in 12 month time period, not a calendar year. And it has to be 5% of their net worth. Where if you look at a a regular kind of investment, we call it regular global, it's usually 10% of your net worth. In any particular offering that has no limitation on a calendar year, and that's really reserved for a credit investors. So they're trying, but there's still a lot of controls out there and in they're still trying to figure how it works, and the intent is there, right? The intent is to allow people, opportunities to get them engaged with this. But they're still trying to work it out. The regulators just, I think they had a good idea with it. And then the next level up of compliance would be, it's just very expensive to get going. So there are cheaper ways for people to build businesses. However, it's an infancy stage. Even though we talk about 12 is when the jobs act was passed. Most of these things they weren't really active, I like to say go to market until 15 and 16, so it's only been five or six years and you really wanna go through a couple market cycles to really dig in. So there's tools out there. We're still trying to figure 'em out. There probably could be better tools, there is at least some things for people to start with.

Yeah, no that's a fair point. I recently learned more about crowdfunding, and how it works. That there's a $5 million cap and, yes, you can only do it once every 12 months. cause I was looking at doing something to to help other syndicators that I know and raise capital that way. But, there's a lot of. Like legalities you have to go through. I was talking with some SCC lawyers and it it's a very difficult thing to get started, right? For people that are looking for something that's established and something that they can do. That's why I like having these conversations with someone like you that has something in place that can help somebody get started on this journey to financial independence. So I think that's huge cause there is a lot of work that has to go into this stuff. So I know just, Looking at doing this myself with a couple other things, but the way I was trying to raise capital talking to someone like you who's built this platform that I know you put a lot of work and effort into it. I just wanna say that I appreciate all the effort that you've put into your own platform that you have right now. And I think it's definitely something good that people can look into if they're looking to get started right now. Now we touched on a little bit, what do you think about the government really getting involved and trying to like, even out the playing field for investors, do you think that they should be more involved or do you think that we should let like institutions keep doing what they're doing? It does feel like they have an unfair advantage. Do you think there needs to be more regulation or do you think they need to pump the brakes?

The big institutions have the capital to hire the best attorneys in class.

Right.

And to navigate whatever the government does, they're gonna, they're gonna change it around right to benefit. They never ever get under the gun by anything. It's really the new newer companies, the innovators out there, they're the ones that kind of get a little bit regulated and slowed down. I haven't heard any kind of traditional firms really. Hammered by any of the new regulation. So there's gotta be some balance there cause the intent there is protect the consumer, but however, you're still letting the same people take advantage of the consumer. Still do it. So that kind of look at the data, that doesn't really make sense, but you also have to watch out for newer people in the market too at the same time. People go in and might go out there and do some fraud right away. So you have to balance that out cause a lot of people are smaller and wanna be off the radar. So how do you balance those two out? They're still trying. But it's like they're a little archaic at the end of the day with stuff and not really understanding how technology and all this works. It's unfortunate but that's just the way it is. And hopefully it might be a generational thing or maybe another decade until we really get balanced there and understanding how to deal with this new world that we've created, especially once we start figuring out blockchain and how to apply that to the banking industry. Everyone's trying real hard right now to do it. You got the crypto coming out there is a place for it, and what is that place? And really there is no guidelines besides them saying, Hey, you can't do this. It's you never said what we can. They always tell yourself. So you know, that's got to kind of change and you just being reality is a situation where it might not change. It's gotta start from the top. But again, we don't wanna get into politics, but when you have the average age of everyone in Congress seems like it's 85 plus. It's how are you gonna think this way about technology?

Yeah. They're not worried about saving up for retirement at that point. Right?

Yeah.

You gotta think about the who are the people making the rules, right? So that, that is definitely something to keep in mind. And as I mentioned a couple times before, pay attention to those things. I've always been curious about. Like blockchain technology when it comes to, let's say real estate, right? I know eventually, and I know that there's a, some companies working on this and some people that have already done it, but like putting titles on the blockchain, as a NFT and things like that. I When you start doing that, you're gonna start cutting out all these middlemen. Right when you start doing these real estate transactions, and it's gonna be a lot more cost effective. And you might see some businesses go out to business because you're the need to have title in escrow will, might go away, right? If this is something that everyone adopts. So it's very interesting, to see where this is going and just where technology's taken us. And these are the little things that I try to pay attention to, especially because, Since I've retired from the Navy I'm a full-time real estate agent, and that's been my focus now. So I try to pay attention to all that. Do I think it's gonna happen within, the next year? Probably not. But I think it's happening. I think there's stuff moving in that direction. So what are your thoughts on that?

Recording the documents. Like you go down to Yeah, your local county recorders, and there's a lot of room for human error there and you know it's instantaneous with the blockchain. So how do you incorporate that into it versus the other things that are the negative components that people haven't figured out? So it's what can we incorporate today versus the other stuff that we need to work on before we incorporate it? Now that's a big one too cause I've been around a while, I've seen a lot of transactions where there's like dual recordings or something that's not recorded properly and now you can take that whole thing away and there's a big kind of issues with that in real estate at the end of the day with title and all of the transferring to title and that stuff. If you've been in real estate long enough, you probably understand what I'm saying and we have this tool right now we could use. So yeah, I'd like to see it come across. It is gonna take some time, but there's a way to apply it and not say, Hey, this technology sucks for the whole thing. Let's not use that at all. But there's parts of what we can't use today.

Yeah. No, thank you. I appreciate that. That's awesome. All right, Craig this conversation has been awesome and we've been all over the place but I love it. I got some really good notes here while I was talking to you. I wanna transition this into something that I call the final round. It's where I'm gonna ask you three hard hitting questions about how Craig is under pressure and with some of the challenges you faced throughout your career and your life. And then one opinionated question at the end. So if you're ready to go, we'll get this party started.

Yeah. Ready to go.

All right, let's do it. All right. So the first question I'm gonna ask you is, what's the biggest mistake you've ever made in finance?

Oh, when I was younger in my twenties, I probably had, I don't know, 20 grand in an account and I invested in some penny stocks. I think it was gone in the next day.

Yeah. Penny stocks I've I've played around with that a little bit myself and I think they say what, it's 92% of penny stocks fail or something like that. So it's very hard to find the right one. So yeah, that's definitely. I think a lot of people that have been investing for a while have a story like that. It's painful. So appreciate you sharing that.

All my savings as a kid. Yeah. That wasn't fun, , Average Joe Finances: You were time to recover, so that's awesome. Okay. Now this kind of, this next question kind of ties into this as well, but what is something that you've learned that you wish you knew when you first got started? I would say more on the technology side of things cause I came more from a syndication structuring legal real estate capital, but more about technology. So I've learned a lot about technology and how to apply it. However, if I had to start over again, I would have doubled, even tripled my efforts on that area.

No, that's a very fair point. And it's one, again, like one of the things I said I'm paying attention to is like, what's going on with blockchain and everything else because even though I don't know that much about it and I've had several. Crypto folks come on the show and explain this stuff to me. I still need to learn it better. So I definitely need to go read the Bitcoin standard. That book's been recommended to me a bunch of times. I definitely wanna go check that out. But it's, you gotta pay attention to those things. I think that's probably the biggest thing coming out this conversation we're having today, is watch what's going on and educate yourself. Now I got another question for you that this also ties into it and it's gonna be helpful for our listeners as well. But do you have any tips or tricks that you would recommend to someone that is just getting started today?

I think the number one thing is get started. So I always have an acronym. I say, DO. Do, and whatever you're doing with that action is get the learning from it, right? So by doing, you're gonna learn. And then with that you get the growth. So I call it do learn, grow. Take action, learn from what you did, and make sure you apply it your next time. That's where the growth comes in. Cause you could do it, you could say, okay, I learned this, and. If you make the same mistake again, that's what was on you. So definitely to try to not make that same mistake again, especially today with all these tools out there, it's Hey, you gotta get going. What is your excuse? There is enough out there. We talked about the micro stuff. You know these a hundred dollars and there's some stuff out there for $5. You losing that money at the end of the day is not the end of the world for people. You can learn from that what went wrong, why it happened. So again, do something, take action, learn from it and try not to make the stay mistake again.

Craig, I love that I wrote that down. DO, LEARN, GROW. You have to take action. If you're just sitting around trying to figure out what to do, you're never gonna do anything. So make a decision and take action. I love that. All right so do you have a favorite business investing or real estate related book or podcast, or both?

Yeah, I would say more of my stuff is studying psychology and human behavior. So I'm big Robert Green fan. He has the laws of human nature. I love that book. Of course I read all these financial books at the same time across the board. But I really like to study human psychology and human behavior. I don't think I really have to get diving details cause we understand a lot of decisions people make, and a lot of the bubbles we have due to, if that's due to the mob mentality of things. So understanding human behavior and how it applies to finance, I think it's very important for people to understand.

That's awesome. You said the book was by Robert Green?

Robert Green? Correct.

Okay, awesome. Yeah, I'm gonna go look that one up. Might have to add it to the list that's great. And, human behavior and psychology like that it's something you should be aware of, right? Especially your own behavior, right? Because, that's part of that DO, LEARN, GROW that you had mentioned earlier, right? There's a lot of things out there that might be holding you back some mental roadblocks that you're facing. So learning to overcome them, seeing how other people have done it to overcome as well is something that's helpful. So always educating yourself. I think that's, I think that's huge. So Craig, this has been, again, like I said, an awesome conversation. I really love what you're doing and I think, my listeners that are listening right now are like, Hey, I wanna know more about Craig and DiversyFund, so let's help them out here. Where can they find that information about you? Do you have a website you could share with us social media platforms they can follow and learn more?

Very easy. DiversyFund.com. That's the business itself. You could log onto it, we're mobile friendly. Also have an app if you wanna download iOS and Android. Myself, Craig Cecilio. I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, normal places. Easy to find. CXC as well is my acronym for my initials.

Awesome. Hey, so everybody that's listening right now, I will have those links in the show notes for you to make it easy for you to just click and copy and paste. But like I've said before, don't do it while you're driving. Okay? Cause I know a lot of you listen while you're making your commute to work. Don't do it while you're driving. Let's stay safe here. They'll always be in the show notes. Hey Craig, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking this time to talk with me today.

Great. Thanks Mike. Appreciate.

Awesome. And hey, to my listeners, thank you for joining me and our special guest, Craig Cecilio, on the Average Joe Finances podcast. Go leave us a five star review and tell us what you like about today's episode with Craig. Aloha from Hawaii and have a great rest of your day.